Joe Cordeiro- March 6, 2018.
Joe Cordeiro is a no nonsense guy with a great sense of humor. Third-generation Portuguese, he wears a trademark black mustache. His drive and professionalism propelled him through the ranks until he made Captain of Engine 2. He never stopped learning or teaching, and was one of the primary instructors for the Pawtucket Fire Department for two decades. He served as a Rescue Lieutenant, Fire Lieutenant, and Fire Captain before he retired. He also still teaches at the State Fire Academy. This interview was conducted at Greenwood Fire Apparatus where he is currently the General Manager. This is what he said ... TT- Why don't we start at the beginning, like what year you got on and how old you were. JC- I got on in June of 1988 and I was thirty-one years old. TT- What did you do before you got here? JC- I graduated from high school, went into the Coast Guard for four years, and then I went into the merchant marine. I did that for six years, and then I got my Stationary Engineer's license, which means you can work on boilers and generators. I worked at Rhode Island Hospital for three years as a Stationary Engineer. I worked in the power plant at Rhode Island Hospital, and I was also--I had moved to Rehobeth at the time, so I was on the Rehobeth Fire Department. It was a call department. So we got paid by the call. I was on the Rehobeth Ambulance, which was a separate department, and then I was on the Rehobeth Rescue Squad, which was also a separate department. So I did all that, had been friends with Bobby Thurber forever-- TT- Where'd you meet him? JC- I met him at East Providence Ambulance. After I got out of the Coast Guard--I already had my EMT license--I was looking for a job. I saw an ad in the paper, so I applied and got on there, met him there back in July of 1978. So we've been friends since then. TT- He brought in Brulé as well. He met Brulé at Rhode Island Hospital. JC- Yep. He (Thurber) was in East Providence then, went back to Costigan's (Ambulance) because he had come from Costigan's, and he brought me over to Costigan's too. Actually, I forgot about that. When I got out of the Coast Guard there was a lull. I worked private ambulance and then went into the merchant marine. TT- For people that don't know, Costigan Ambulance was really a pipeline for our job. A lot of guys came through there. JC- Back in the day, Costigan's did the transportation, emergency transportation with the fire department. The department had one rescue. That rescue would respond and request an ambulance if needed, and Costigan's would send an ambulance and do the transport. We actually ended up doing a lot of emergency work with the rescue guys on the fire department. And like you said, a lot of guys went from Costigan's--if it wasn't Pawtucket, they went somewhere on a fire department. TT- Now the merchant marines, we're talking about sailing the seven seas. We're talking about huge cargo ships ... JC- I was actually on oil tankers, 1100 footers, or supertankers, with a crew of twenty-six and that included the deck guys, engine room, and the steward crew and the kitchen crew. In the engine room where I worked there was seven. One was the chief engineer, so he didn't stand on watch. So there was six of us, two guys per watch, and we would work four-hour shifts on watch and then when you were off watch you would do maintenance repair. TT- How long would you be out? JC- Minimum was ninety days. It could be more. Like a hundred and twenty days. TT- So we're talking three to four months at a whack? JC- Yup. TT- Wow. So you saw the world, right? JC- Yes. TT- Where would you--did you have a regular route? JC- Well, it depends on the ship you were on. Actually, in the Coast Guard, you'd be surprised, because I went--when the recruiter had me in his office and showed me pictures of little forty-foot patrol boats out in Narragansett Bay, I was like, "Oh, that looks like fun." TT- (laughs) JC- Then I get to Basic Training and they got these huge ships, and I ended up getting assigned to a ship that was 378 feet long, a destroyer-sized ship, so I went all over the world. I went to New Foundland, along the coast, Charlestown, South Carolina, Norfolk, Virginia, Guantanamo, Cuba, went to England, Spain, Italy, Jamaica ... that was just the Coast Guard. TT- So on the tankers there was what? The Middle East? JC- I never did that. I did the Scotland run a couple of times, but most of the time it was West Coast, up to Alaska, and then down either to Washington State or Long Beach, California, or down to Panama. Some of the smaller tankers I went through the Panama Canal on. It was pretty interesting. TT- What happened? Was six years enough? JC- I had gotten married, had the first kid, then the second kid was on the way, and it was like, "Ehh." TT- Because you're missing everything. JC- Yeah. The money's great. But yeah, you miss everything. TT- So you got on the fire department in 1988. And back then what was the process? Did you have an academy and then come on? JC- They had a fire school. TT- Who were some of the guys you came on with? JC- I was with the "Dirty Dozen." TT- Oh yeah? (laughs). So we're talking Kean-o-- JC- Boisclair, Kean, Garlick, Bobby Plouffe, Frank Johnson came on right after us... TT- So you came on with the Dirty Dozen, you got assigned to a spot, right? JC- No. When we got on, they had an issue with promotional exams. They weren't taking them because they were fighting with the city. I'm sure you heard about that. TT- I did. JC- So we came on, we did our probationary time, and then you got a temporary assignment. So you went somewhere to fill a spot. Not like now where it's a bid spot. Because there were no lieutenants, there were only Actings, so once they straightened that out they had mass promotions, where they promoted like thirty officers, and then after all that was sorted out, you were able to finally bid and find a home. TT- Now the controversy itself was that they wanted outside testing for the officers spots. They didn't want it in-house anymore. JC- Yes. It was in-house, and they wanted outside testing. There was some other stuff, but that was before I got there. TT- So how long did they go between promotions? JC- Years and years. TT- It sounds like there was no lieutenants left, like everybody was an Acting... JC- I don't remember the number, but if I remember correctly it was in St. Mary's Parish Hall on Roosevelt Avenue. My recollection is that there were thirty promotions that day. TT- Wow. JC- There was a handful of lieutenants left but not many. TT- Now they created the captains at this time? JC- (pauses) That I can't remember. But it was all around the same time. TT- Now who were some of the old-school guys you were working with, the guys who taught you? JC- Well, I was fortunate because I spent a lot of time at Station 2, headquarters. And it's funny, because if you talk to some of the other guys, but it seems like where you start, where your first station was, is kind of where you try to get back to? Because once you start bidding you're going to different places. In fact, when I first started you couldn't get on Engine 2. Forget it. You weren't bidding there as a new guy. It wasn't going to be open. So you'd go somewhere and if you wanted to be on Engine 2 you would wait your turn, and over the years, work your way back there. The crew that I spent a lot of time with was Battalion Chief Thurber, on Engine 2 was Mike Szczoczarz (So-sarz), Pete Basiliere, and I can't remember the ladder crew... TT- So you started off down there and you were able to stay down there. JC- I was able to stay there for a while, because that's when we'd be doing the dispatch. We'd get moved around, from dispatch, to the engine, ladder, rescue, wherever. I did spend a lot of time at headquarters until we had our first temporary bid, then I ended up going to Rescue 1 with Dick Lemay. TT- He told a funny story--actually it wasn't a funny story at all--but he told me you guys went to Dartmouth Street one night for an emotional disturbance or something, something that sounded so mundane, then you get there and the door opens and can you describe what happened next? JC- We get there, knock on the door, and a guy comes out with a steak knife and he's just rambling on and we're going, "What the hell is this?" and the next thing you know we're all wrestling around in the hallway and he cut me in the face. So now we're calling for help. Fire Alarm couldn't hear us because we were in the high-rise and they were having trouble with their communications, so they couldn't hear us, but Engine 1, Bobby Ogle was the lieutenant. I forget who was with him. But he heard it from the 1's, so they self-dispatched to give us a hand and then they called for the cops on the way over. The thing is, I remember when we held him down, I finally grabbed the knife off of him and I was able to get up and put it on the stretcher, because it was evidence, I knew that. So I put it on the stretcher. The cops get there and everything else. I tell them it's on the stretcher--there's no knife. Some people that this guy knew, I don't even know who these people were, councilors that they had called to come and help? I don't remember. And this is speculation, but when they got there, they took the knife, so we didn't have any evidence. TT- I mean this is assault with a deadly weapon. Could've even been elevated to attempted murder. JC- It was funny because the guy ended up pleading out. I never even went to court on it, it all got settled out of court. But the funny story is, my wife works for the post office in Rehobeth. There's a new clerk there and they become friends. He invites us over to his house, he's having a little get-together, invites us over. We meet his wife and some of his friends. So one of his friends is a lawyer. We're all sitting around having some drinks and I'm being quiet because I don't know these people, I'm just kind of checking it out, and he starts talking about this case. Now I don't know how it came up, but he says, "Yeah, I just defended a guy that assaulted a firefighter." (laughs) So I'm sitting there, like, "Hmm." So he goes through the whole story, about how this guys stabbed a firefighter with a knife, blah blah blah. So all of a sudden I'm like "Holy shit, this is the guy ...?" So I go, "What was your client's name?" He couldn't tell me, obviously, but he goes, "I'll tell you his first name." "Yeah, go ahead." So he told me and I go, "Yeah. I'm the guy he stabbed." TT- (laughs) JC- I told my wife, "Let's go." TT- (laughs) JC- And they're all nervous until I go, "Only kidding." (laughs). But that's a true story. You should've seen everyone's faces falling. TT- So where'd he get you? The face? JC- Just a nick across the cheek. TT- Just a nick with a freaking steak knife. JC- They took pictures and everything. If I remember correctly, he was a war veteran and I get it. He had problems. I get it. TT- How long were you with Dick Lemay? JC- A couple of years. Three years? On Rescue 1 and then I took a promotional exam for rescue lieutenant and so that came up. It was funny because I was tired of the rescue and wanted to go to an engine company and the next thing you know they had an opening on Rescue 2 for lieutenant. And I was hemming and hawing, should I? Should I not? Everybody's over at the Celtic (legendary Pawtucket Fire bar), yelling, "Well, you can't turn down a promotion!" And I said, "Alright." So I took it and like a week later I was like, "This was a mistake." (laughs and laughs.) TT- (laughs) JC- So I did six months as a rescue lieutenant and then I was at a bid and Engine 2 opened up. TT- Nice. JC- So I grabbed it and went back to being a firefighter. TT- So what year are we talking about? You've been on the job four or five years, maybe? JC- Probably like four. Like 1992. TT- Now the thing about Lemay, outside of the fact that he probably trained the majority of guys in EMS that came on the job, was just the way he treated everyone the same, right? He used to have a saying, I mean a person could be an alcoholic, drug addict, covered in God knows what, just a total mess, and he'd be like, "You know, you're just one or two failed opportunities away from being this guy." Treated everyone with respect. JC- Yup. TT- It's just something that reverberates through. You realize--that's what the job kind of shows you, you can see how bad things can go for some people, and how the ones that have it good don't even know it. JC- He was great. He was just a great guy to work with. Not only because of the knowledge and experience, but the patience. I did have a little background coming from Rehobeth, but still, I had cardiac stuff but I never did stuff like that before. Just the patience and me doing stuff and him just smiling and shaking his head. "Hey, Lou, is this blood supposed to be coming out of this tube?" And he'd shake his head, "No, that's an artery. We don't want to stick that." "Oh, okay, sorry about that." TT- (laughs) JC- We had some interesting stuff. Spent like two and a half or three years together. But I always enjoyed it. I was new and wanted to be busy, learn the city--because I wasn't from Pawtucket--learn the city and all that, and we were certainly busy. TT- So you're on Engine 2 and what happens next? When did you make lieutenant? JC- I took the test after six years. Back in those days, after five years you could take your first promotional exam. I made lieutenant off of that list. TT- Now were you around guys like Ray Gilbert? JC- Not Ray Gilbert, but Ray, uh, Ray-- TT- Mathews? JC- Yes. And then Ray Naughton, out of the 1's TT- We're talking about put-together guys, as far as firemen go. JC- Oh yeah. TT- When your name is mentioned in pretty rare air, like Timmy Hayes, and funny stories get told about that guy just being a complete smoke-eater while smoking Pall Malls in the middle of a fire-- JC- I'm sure you've heard the story where you're down, gagging, trying to breathe on the floor, and you hear, "Come on, kid, let's go." He's just standing there with the cigarette going. You gotta pack on and everything and he's like, "Let's go, kid, this thing ain't gonna put itself out." (Laughs). So you watch this and say to yourself, "Oh, I think I can do this too." Until you pull your mask off and start puking. "Okay, I guess not." TT- (laughs). He never wore a pack? JC- Every now and then. But don't forget, they didn't even have packs when those guys started. Different generation, different mentality. The whole thing is, when you came on, there were people that you looked up to. And your goal was to impress them. You wanted to do a good job and work hard and do what you gotta do and be there, when it was time, and you wanted these guys to acknowledge that yeah, you're doing a good job. You hear it, and some people might think it's corny, but the best compliment you can give a firefighter is tell him he's a good firefighter. He was a good Jake. That's the best compliment you can get, right? TT- And you talk about the guys who know how to read things. (B.C.) Kraweic would talk about reading smoke, and guys who were instinctive firemen, and Bobby Ogle's name comes up a lot as far as just being in a fire and he can almost describe what's happening, and what's gonna happen next, and you know, it seems that we've lost some of that just because ... I mean there are fires all the time, but not with the ferocity of that generation. We have fatal fires, we have all that stuff, but in the 70's and 80's, they were laying feeders every other day. We're good at the medical, the OD's, the heart attacks and car wrecks ... we can do that stuff in our sleep. But you pull up now and some of the new guys are kind of looking around ... JC- And that's where working with the senior guys, and them explaining it and you picking it up until you say, "Wait a minute, what kind of construction is this? Let's get somebody up to the third-floor and crack a wall, see if it's stretching for the roof. Let's check that attic space. That crawl space. The last few times that's what we had, so let's head it off." The text book says, first line here, second line here, well, that's great. That's the text book. But let's get a line up there where the fire is extending to and let's just push it back this way and put the frigging thing out. So you gotta have the text books, you gotta have the base to work on, but it becomes learning from the guys that were there before you, and then learning yourself, like you talked about, starting to read the scene, "Lemme take a second and see what's going on here before I commit. What exactly is going on here?" So you try to make the right decision right off the bat. TT- Now you were a captain when you left, so I'm guessing you were an Acting Battalion Chief at certain points. When you would be put in the car, that's a whole other level of responsibility. Obviously, we're talking about the safety of 30-something guys and 80,000 people. JC- That's a big responsibility. And I can remember the first fire I had as an Acting B.C., as much as I know what to do--as an officer on an engine company, whether I'm first due, second-due, third-in, am I attack, water supply, am I on the back-up line, if I'm on the ladder am I ventilation? Those roles are kind of spelled out. But as a Battalion Chief you come in and you gotta take in this whole scene, and kind of direct it, make sure everyone's staying safe, getting the resources you need to the fire, but it's a whole different perspective. I remember the first time that happened to me, I was little bit overwhelmed, to tell you the truth. It was just, it seemed like I was behind a step, know what I mean? I just couldn't get ahead of this thing. It was a whole different perspective. But that's how you learn? That's your experience. TT- Can you think of any crazy rescue runs you had? JC- I gotta tell you one. Cops are there on a psych eval. So we go. There's four cops there. They're like, "This person's gotta go to the hospital." She doesn't want to go. So we walk in, she might've weighed a hundred pounds. A little thing. But she was on something. So, Dick does his thing, trying to talk to her, "Listen, you gotta get checked out," all nice-like. She goes, "I'm not going." "But miss, this will really help you out." She goes, "I'm not going." This goes on for a while. Finally, we're gonna have to grab her. The cops are like, "Okay, take her away." So we go to grab her and she starts fighting. Six of us. Six of us. And we still got beat up. She's rolling around, flipping us off, it wasn't really funny as much as it was like, "Are you freaking kidding me? Is this really happening?" It took four cops and two firemen to bring her down and restrain her. TT- A hellcat. JC- That's why when people say, "What're all these guys here for?" Because you never know. TT- People watch these things on TV about use of force, and they don't realize that when you pull up on a scene, whatever's happening has to be resolved at some point. We're not just gonna go away. The cops aren't just gonna go away. We can sit there and talk to them for an hour, whatever it takes, but someone somewhere along the way has to make a decision. We need to put these companies back in service. Right? JC- My first--Dick's on vacation, it's a Sunday and Dick's on vacation--so my first shift as Acting Lieutenant, I'm nervous. First run we go to is 150 Dartmouth Street. We get there, walk in the apartment, there's a guy and his wife, his daughter and his son-in-law. So we make contact, they called for chest pain/difficulty breathing. "Okay, sir, we're gonna take you to the hospital." "I don't want to go." "Well, who called us?" "We did." He doesn't want to go. I say, "Let me check your vitals." I go through the whole thing, I say, "Sir, your blood pressure's down, you're having some problems breathing, you really need to go to the hospital." "Well, I'm not going." I'm thinking to myself, "Fantastic." My first call, right? So I ended up, we're there for forty minutes. I was sitting on the couch next to the guy, we were just talking, shooting the shit, and I was explaining different stuff and finally I said, "You really need to go to the hospital." "Well, I'm not going to the hospital." So the family's like, "You gotta take him." I says, "I can't. He's of sound mind, I can't force him to go." So I had him sign a refusal and I said, "Listen, do not hesitate to call me back." Okay? An hour later we get the call and go back and now he's a code. TT- Ugh. JC- So we bring him to Miriam, but he doesn't make it. I'll never forget it. We were walking out of the ER and his wife comes up to me and says, "This is all your fault because you didn't take him to the hospital." TT- Jesus. JC- So we got back to the station and I go, "First run of the day. That went well." TT- (Laughs.) It's not even lunch and the day's just torched. JC- What is for lunch? The biggest question ever asked on the fire department. TT- What about Greenhalgh Mill? JC- I was working that day, and I was in Canton, Ma., teaching. So class finished up something like two or three o'clock. So I says, "Well, it's too late for me to go home before shift." Thurber was working so I figured I'd go in early and relieve him. So I get on 95 South and you can see this smoke, I say, "Holy Christ, someone's got something big, maybe it's Attleboro or something." So I put the radio on and I'm driving, and it's windy and I'm like, "Oh man, that's a big one." The news goes, "Meanwhile, in Pawtucket, a large fire is ravaging a mill complex." I put it to the floor and come flying into the city and it was funny because Mike Thurber was driving this old station wagon we had, to go the fire scene from Station 2. It was loaded with guys and their gear. I come flying into the parking lot and scream, "Wait for me!" "There's no room!" "You better wait for me!" I run in, grab my stuff, jump in--I don't even know how I fit in, we're all just laying in there with our gear and we get to the fire scene--" TT- It's like a clown-car. JC- Exactly. Everyone falling out over all the place. But that was quite the fire. TT- Now when you got there, where did you go that day? JC- We showed up at Station 4 and just went to work. Because there was plenty of work. TT- I was told that they didn't even allow guys to go into houses, they were just trying to maintain the perimeter to keep the rest of the city from burning down. JC- We went into a couple of houses, but there was two houses next to each other. One was going really good, the other was just starting. So I says, "Listen, forget that one, because we ain't saving that one. Let's put water on this one." So that's what we did. We actually saved that house. But once the houses got going there was nothing you could do. TT- When you saw the mill, had you ever seen anything like that? Because I heard stories that that thing was just lit up. JC- By the time I got there, that thing was just, like you just said, "Wow." Which is not what I really said, but you can fill in the blanks. TT- Four stories ripping, blowing through a neighborhood with embers showering everything, it sounds like a war movie. Now the fallout from events like this is that we don't have enough airpacks for everybody. So the guys on shift that day had air, maybe there were a few reserve packs floating around somewhere, but every guy I've talked with who wasn't on shift basically showed up and ate smoke for twelve or fourteen hours, and not pleasant smoke either. We're talking 55 gallon drums- JC- And different colors. TT- Right? Never a good sign. It's almost like any guy that was there that day and eating that wind with all that smoke should be on a cancer watch list right now. JC- It's not conducive to your health, that's for sure. TT- This wasn't a quick event either. JC- But you didn't think about that stuff. You just do your job and do what you gotta do, but it was one of those events where you were like, "I've never seen this before, and I hope I never see it again." It was incredible. There were fires everywhere. It was funny because you'd be on the scene and people I knew from Central Falls and East Providence and Lincoln--guys I knew from all over the state--it was like a mini-reunion. TT- Except for the inferno. JC- (Laughs) It was a very quick hello, we were busy. TT- After that there was Union Wadding Mill. That was nowhere near as bad as Greenhalgh, but that was a big big fire. Now as far as situations that develop, where you're like, "You know, maybe we should get the hell out of here." Did you have any close calls? JC- Well, I probably ... I can't remember the street. Where I fractured my back. That's sad. My memory is gone. But I was at the 5's and they sent Engine 2 out. It was right where the 2's and 5's districts meet. What the hell was the name of the street? Anyway, it was for a wheelchair fire. TT- Did you just say a wheelchair? JC- Wheelchair fire. I don't know if the caller told--the dispatchers were Moe (Barris) and Mike (McMahon, legendary characters who were veterans of World War II and Vietnam respectively)--don't know if the caller told them the wheelchair was in the freaking house ... TT- Oh no... JC- They send Engine 2. Engine 2 gets there--it was a Saturday, Engine 2 gets there and all you hear is "Code Red." What? We're all looking at each other. "What'd he say?" Code Red. Code Red? Next thing you know Beep Boop Bop of we go. Now this thing is roaring. The battery for the wheelchair, they were charging it in the house when it exploded. So this thing's going. By the end of the day we had a civilian fatality, six firefighters injured, several other civilians injured. This thing just went like that (snaps his fingers). But yeah, it came in as a wheelchair fire. You never know... Anyway, I ended up falling down the stairs into the basement, backwards, so when I hit the bottom, where my bottle was, it snapped there. I fractured my vertebrae down there. So I was out of work for like four months. TT- They do surgery? JC- No. Healed up. TT- What year we talking? JC- '92. TT- When did you retire. JC- 2010. TT- Twenty-three years? JC- Yes. TT- How old were you when you left? Fifty-five? JC- Fifty-three. TT- You were able to get out and continue your other career. JC- I've been involved with Greenwood ... I was in their Training Division, I became the New Truckshop Manager, now I'm the General Manager, and I've been with Greenwood for twenty-one years. So I've been here for a long time, too. They've always taken real good care of me. They've been a great company to work for. TT- Now when you look back, do you have any regrets? JC- Not really. I've been very fortunate. I will say that I wish I had stayed a few years more, but that's a tough decision that someday you'll have to make as well. TT- Every guy I've talked with has wrestled with that. Because once you walk out that door ... JC- I think you always have second thoughts. Not everybody, but I did. I missed it for a long time. TT- Right? You have to readjust your whole life. JC- Yup. TT- Chickie was saying it took him three months to get used to being around his wife so much because he was always at work. (Laughs) JC- It's funny because when I retired, I told my wife, "Okay here's the date," --now don't forget I met her when I was in the military, I was on ships, then I'm in the merchant marine so I'm gone all the time, then I'm on the fire department with that schedule, and she goes, "Lemme tell you something--" she's very independent, she goes, "Lemme tell you something. I've been used to having at least two nights a week with you not being around here. Don't you cramp my style." (Laughs and laughs). I said, "Don't worry." TT- Chickie was like, "I wasn't used to sleeping right and eating good and blah blah blah." It took him a minute to get back to life. That's a hard call to make, though, because once you're gone there ain't no coming back JC- Even now, it's funny how much turnover there's been in the last ten years. I'll walk into a station now and I'll recognize one person? Maybe two? TT- Brulé said the same thing. He walked in downtown and said, "I don't even know who any of these people are." When guys retire they do, they disappear. Unless you see them at some function, they're usually gone for good. It's so weird because you spend your whole life with these guys and then one day it just stops. Then they feel kind of weird going back to the station because everything's kind of moved on, right? It sealed over ... JC- Yeah. When you first retire it's a little weird but you still know guys and can grab a coffee. But after a while, like I said, I really don't know a lot of people. TT- It's just like these guys show up, they do the job, and they just disappear. And it keeps going on. It's the same job it's been for two hundred years, right? JC- Yes. Think about the bed you're sleeping in or the office you're working in, and how many generations of people have done the same thing. TT- Chief Cute one time came in. It was right after he retired. He just looked around the table--just completely blurts it out-- "I don't even feel like I should be here anymore." And I was like, "Woah." JC- I don't know if I can explain it, but you were part of it, and now you're not. You're a retiree, you did your time, but you're not part of it anymore. A lot of times, it's just easier to go on. That's why you don't see a lot of retirees at stuff because it's not our time anymore. TT- You're on Engine 2. And the highway stuff. I'd imagine you've seen some pretty horrible shit out there. JC- We had that girl that hit the abutment. TT- Nightmare. JC- That was bad. They hit it at like 70 MPH. TT- Mikey Dawson, me and him were on Rescue 2 when we got a call for a rollover. With ejections. I was fully braced for an S-Curves bloodbath. We're pulling up, and there's the mom and five kids all lined up on the embankment, the car's completely wrecked, and it turns out the mother was the only one wearing a seatbelt. The mother said none of the kids would not put on their seatbelts. Every kid got thrown out and they were all fine. Now Can you think of anything else you'd like to talk about? You were always one of the most knowledgeable dudes on the job. Involved with training, teaching ... JC- Still am. Still do it now. I'm supposed to do a class with North Providence. They bought Cumberland's old ladder truck. It's a 75-footer with only two jacks instead of the four. So they called up and said, "Can you come out here and put us through a class?" Still doing that. Still studying. TT- We were talking earlier when you gave me a tour of the facility, about how things are changing in the fire service itself. There's a complete fixation with safety at this point, and it does have its place, but it seems to be going kind of overboard, especially the use of seatbelts. I can't ever get used to the fact that you're on your way to something, you're getting all of your gear squared away, you already have enough straps and crap hanging all over you--radios, suspenders, airtank. Ricky (Slater) was out so I was in charge of Ladder 2 and had the seatbelt on. Got stuck in the seatbelt, took a step out, and was literally hanging off the side of the truck like a ball of mucous. I looked like a complete idiot, right? Thank God no one saw it and there was no video of it because that was some ridiculous shit. But I was like, "You know what? I can't wear a seatbelt on the way to something where I have to actually function. I got more important things to think about-- "Are we search and rescue, are we the vent team, where are we gonna place this thing so we can get a clean shot for that roof?" The seatbelts suck. They put little kids in schoolbuses and say a prayer, but 250 pound men have to wear seatbelts. So it seems everything is slowing down. The speed element of what we do is being lost. Especially the ladder guys. They're really putting the brakes on those guys. By the time these guys get up there to cut the hole half the house is gone. JC- Right? It's like forget it. TT- I get that people don't want to say that safety is bad, blah blah blah, but you do. You see it slowing everybody down. JC- Like I said, we talked about it earlier. My big thing is that, with the apparatus, the equipment, there's so many features on it to make it safe, which is great, but you still need to know how to run your truck. You still need to know how it works. Just because I have a body-protect (a fabricated piece that prevents the ladder from hitting the truck) that makes sure the ladder's not going to hit the truck as I'm putting the ladder into the cradle, or even rotating it at a scene, I still gotta be aware of the fact that I should be putting the ladder away myself instead of the computer, not depending on that. Listen, if the sensors are out of adjustment it's gonna hit the vehicle anyway. Depending on the sensors instead of humans is risky business. TT- Kind of scary. Like airplanes with pilots that no longer have to land them. JC- Yes, you gotta know the basics. You gotta know how to operate your truck. What happens if it fails? Is there a way for you to operate, if you can't get your pump engaged at a fire because of the computer, is there a way for you to manually engage your pump? Do you have that override? Do you know how to use it ... to me, you talk about safety stuff and that's something that should be on there because it's something that does happen (computer failure). The override gives you the opportunity to engage your pump if you have an air problem. Some of this other stuff, the worst one I saw that set me off a little bit, was an automatic tank fill. TT- Oh no. JC- Yeah. Now don't quote me on the numbers, but if you had an intake pressure from your supply greater than thirty or forty pounds, and your tank got down to half a tank, this valve would automatically open to fill your water tank ... TT- Dear God. JC- And if your incoming pressure dropped to like the twenties, the valve would automatically close. So I'm talking to the salesperson saying, "Oh what could possibly go wrong with that." (laughs) TT- That is freaking crazy. JC- I said, "Don't sell those." That is ridiculous. I can't pull the lever myself and put water into my own tank? Really? TT- Crazy. It's getting to the point where the computer panel on the pump, like we were talking about, "Where is the knob I turn? Where's the relief valve? And I'll put the fire out on my own. I don't need all this stuff." There's been a single knob to turn for a hundred years. Why do we need to reinvent this? Why do we need sensitive computer chips that don't like water or vibration or violence, because a fire truck is full of all those things. JC- I do Driver-Training and Pump-Operator training classes for the Rhode Island Fire Academy, and a lot of my classes, we have a couple of pumpers there. One of the pumpers actually has a switch where you can use either the pressure governor or you can go back to the relief valve. So you can train on both. And I'll do a class and someone will say, "Our department only has the computerized one." And I'll say, "That's great but you still need to see how this is gonna work in the real world." It's gonna show you how the pump works. One of the big things is troubleshooting. What can you do if the worst thing happens? You're running a pump at a fire scene. You don't have that luxury to say, "Oh, the pump doesn't work. Wrap it up." Well, you better do something because you've got people in the building and I'm pretty sure they'd like some water to put out the fire. (laughs) You gotta know your equipment. TT- And not only that, but the safety safety safety--I was on a ladder crew for three years and I loved it. I was a roofer, so heights don't bother me. Anyway, I got reprimanded a couple of times for being on the tip as they flew me up with the saw. "Your feet are gonna get broken in the rungs, blah blah blah," and I get it. It's dangerous. But do you know how much faster this operation's gonna go after I step off this thing fresh? Instead of climbing eighty feet with sixty pounds of gear, airppack, roof ladder-- JC- But do you know how many people every year that happens too? TT- I get it. They get their feet caught in the ladders, get their ankles broken-- JC- It still happens. TT- But it's a risk though, and the whole job is risk. You try and mitigate these things but at the same point, if you get too far away from the risk nothing's ever gonna get done. JC- I understand what you're saying, but the other way to look at that is, "Don't become a problem." You're at a scene to help solve problems, not become one. TT- True. JC- Don't you become an incident because now there goes more resources to help you out. Bail you out. Now we need people to deal with you. And then they're gonna bust your chops later anyway. (laughs). "What the hell were you thinking!" "Well, chief, it seemed like the thing to do at the time." Look we've had guys get hurt, in other departments in the area, one guy got both of his feet crushed and he's now disabled. Done. TT- I hear ya. Listen, Cap, if you think of anything else give me a call. This was fun. Lemay kept calling me back. We did three hours on tape and he still had more. A thirty or forty page interview. JC- Well, don't forget he was on that rescue for a lot of years. Plus, he used to get us in trouble with Chief Meerbott. Oh my God. We were on the Third Battalion and every time there was a fire Lemay was like, "Alright, let's gear up." We'd go in. The chief would be like, "Where are ya? Where are ya?" We were inside getting our butts kicked by the fire. I remember one time we had to go to his office, he was pissed at us, "You guys aren't supposed to be in there!" One time, right at Exchange Street and Broadway, there used to be a house there. Engine 2 pulled up. Smoke detector had gone off. Engine 2 pulled up and the cop says, "It's just a mattress fire." "Oh, okay." Like two or three alarms later-- (laughs)--we get there on the rescue and Dick goes, "Gear up!" We go up, inside on the second-floor, we go out on a landing, we get stuck on a roof. We can't get out because the way we came in is now fully involved. So we're on the roof and I go, "Now what do we do?" All of a sudden Chief Boisclair's yelling, "Jesus Christ! What're you guys doing up there!" (laughs) "Someone get the ladder and get those guys down!" Yeah, we got in trouble. TT- Well, he was a hard-charger. He was going in no matter what, right? JC- And Chief Boisclair was great, just a great guy. Really good chief. TT- I appreciate you taking the time. I mean you trained us all up and then were gone three years later, but I remember everything from our academy, still do, which shows you how good you must be because I'm not a very bright guy. JC- (laughs) It was fun. The academies were always fun. A lot of work, but working with Bobby (Thurber), it was great. TT- You had a great career. Thank you for sitting down with me. JC- Good luck, T . .
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AuthorTom Trabulsi was born in the Midwest, attended high school in Rhode Island, and graduated from Boston University with a degree in American History. He was a bike courier in Boston and New York City, worked construction in the mountain west and east coast, and is currently a firefighter in a northeast city. Archives
August 2022
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